Topic: Are Christians today nicer than God?

[Tony]

I thought it might be time to change the subject matter as some of the other threads have kind of played themselves out.

I realize we should always deal with people coming from a place of love, my question is, in so doing, can we sometimes love them right into hell? Sometimes a person may be at a place where we can be gentle and merciful. We may be able to pray with them. Other times people are proud in their sin, even boastful. Should we extend grace, mercy and forgiveness to them as well?

I have noticed in my studies that sometimes Jesus and men in the Bible were deliberately offensive, rude, sarcastic, even mocking towards the wicked and sometimes even to fellow believers. Saying things no Christian would say today. Why would they do that?

I have seen Christians display these attitudes but not usually in an appropriate manner. Usually bickering over small matters. So should we always be 'nice'? What about 'tough love'?

Is there a place for 'confrontational evangelism' in today's world? We don't want to be hypocrites, so
 must we be 'perfect' before 'judging the smallest of matters?'

Thoughts?

[Tim Russ]

I thought it might be time to change the subject matter as some of the other threads have kind of played themselves out.

I realize we should always deal with people coming from a place of love, my question is, in so doing, can we sometimes love them right into hell? Sometimes a person may be at a place where we can be gentle and merciful. We may be able to pray with them. Other times people are proud in their sin, even boastful. Should we extend grace, mercy and forgiveness to them as well?

I have noticed in my studies that sometimes Jesus and men in the Bible were deliberately offensive, rude, sarcastic, even mocking towards the wicked and sometimes even to fellow believers. Saying things no Christian would say today. Why would they do that?

I have seen Christians display these attitudes but not usually in an appropriate manner. Usually bickering over small matters. So should we always be 'nice'? What about 'tough love'?

Is there a place for 'confrontational evangelism' in today's world? We don't want to be hypocrites, so
 must we be 'perfect' before 'judging the smallest of matters?'

Thoughts?

I think you’re right in a lot of what you say here.

If we don’t present salvation to people we’re going to be running the risk of seeing people go to hell for eternity. 

Are Christians nicer than God in dealing with others.  Sure they are in many situations.  Comparing Christians to God, though is always going to leave the Christian in a lesser position.

Extending grace, mercy, and forgiveness to someone who despises those things is nothing more than casting your pearls before swine (as the scripture puts it).  On the other hand to expect people to humiliate themselves at an altar or anyplace else before we show grace, mercy, or forgiveness is mean spirited and doesn’t honor God’s love.

I think the key word you used in your post is ‘sometimes’.  I believe there are times when we must be harsh with the body of Christ.  The only time I recall him being harsh with anyone who wasn’t jewish was here:

(Matthew 15:22-28 NIV)  A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." {23} Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." {24} He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." {25} The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said. {26} He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs." {27} "Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table." {28} Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

There was obviously something else going on here that we were unaware of.  Perhaps the woman had been openly harsh about Jews.  Perhaps the fact that she was a Canaanite had more to do with it than what meets the surface reading of the scripture.

Offensiveness, rudeness, sarcasm, and even mocking as a default approach to the unsaved doesn’t display love and in my opinion doesn’t honor God.  We live in a society that had embraced these things and now some in the church are embracing them as well, claiming that these were the methods of preaching Jesus used.

Jesus used these things because he was beginning with The Law, which was all Israel knew.  He was teaching them about love.  This was a new concept.  He was explaining that the hundreds of laws they’d lived their life by were soon going to change into two laws and that even those two could be summed up in one law.  The Law of Love.

Confrontational evangelism is not a good way to promote the gospel.  If you confront people you bring offense, you automatically cause people to reject you, you promote a Christianity which cannot be achieved.  You promote a Christian legalism that requires everyone to be perfect, something that cannot be attained expect in spiritual standing.

The expectation that everyone had to do what’s right all the time is a bondage.  Without embracing and teaching the acceptance of people who commit ‘sins’ in the body of Christ you’ll end up not having a body of Christ.

Is there room for tough love?  Sometimes.  This is a last resort, though.  Just as spanking isn’t the first thing you do to teach a child, so tough love isn’t either.  Also, since we’re generally talking about adults here we have to incorporate the fact that we aren’t their judges.  That’s the job of the Holy Spirit.

[Tony]

Confrontational evangelism is not a good way to promote the gospel.  If you confront people you bring offense, you automatically cause people to reject you, you promote a Christianity which cannot be achieved.  You promote a Christian legalism that requires everyone to be perfect, something that cannot be attained expect in spiritual standing.

I would have to respectfully disagree. Absolutely the last thing I wish to promote is legalism. And I know of course we aren't perfect. I'm just saying there is a time to confront and some things can not be tolerated in the Body of Christ.
We want to teach people to have holiness flow out of their relationship with God, and not impose a lot of rules on them. I have much fewer rules than most Christians. For instance I no longer believe we are required to tithe a certain amount, baptize, have communion or any other form of 'law'. I used to promote a theology of 'attainable' sinlessness. I realized it was only a form of legalism. That's not where I'm coming from here.

We who are in the 'Body of Christ' are no longer under the Law. That doesn't mean we allow any and all types of immorality to go unchecked however. This post is only to defend a proper place for reasonable, Godly confrontation at times. It's not intended to be negative, hateful or legalistic at all. It's just something most Christians don't even consider, but it is Biblical. I would contend, if used properly and in the right spirit it is loving and can produce results. I've seen it with my own eyes. That's it, simply, nothing more, nothing less.

Allow me to elaborate:

Christians today are nicer than God.

Or at least they are trying to be so. In the Church there is a standard of niceness that Jesus failed to reach while on earth. Comparing God's attitude and behavior with that of the Church today shows that believers are far more polite, tolerant, understanding and respectful to the wicked than God is.

The Church is also less offensive, rude and sarcastic than God's men in the Bible were. And no Christian would ever be caught dead mocking the wicked, as God's men in the Bible sometimes did.

Jesus was offensive. Most people were offended by him. The proof for John the Baptist that Jesus was the Christ was that the blind see, the lame walk and the majority are "offended" by Him (Mat. 11:2-19). As Jesus said, "Blessed is he who is not offended because of Me" (Mat. 11:6; Luke 7:23). In Galilee, Jesus did not plead with his neighbors to understand Him when "they were offended at Him" (Mat. 13:57; Mark 6:3). If unbelievers are offended, so be it (cf. Luke 14:3-4; John 5:8-16). "Shake off the dust from your feet" (Mat. 10:14). But alas, that is no longer a Christian attitude.

Christ's apostles asked Him, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard (Your) saying?" (Mat. 15:12). What is the accepted Christian response today after an offense is taken? Quick, apologize! Ask for forgiveness! Tell them you are sorry. How did Jesus respond? He said to ignore the complaints of the unbelievers: "Let them alone. They are blind," (Mat. 15:14). Today, many Christians condemn Christ's attitude as unloving.

Jesus promised his followers, "you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. And then many will be offended" (Mat. 24:9-10). Jesus taught that 'if they hated Me, they will hate you'" (see John 15:18-19; 17:14; Mat. 10:22; Luke 21:17). Today Christians think if the world hates them, they have failed. The reverse should be true. It is not that a Christian wants to be hated; it is simply an occupational hazard.

Jesus is the Rock. Most believers are unaware, however, that Jesus used this metaphor to issue a graphic threat against the unrepentant. For Christ said that on whom that Rock "falls, it will grind him to powder" (Mat. 21:44; Luke 20:18). Even the Father said that the Son is the "rock of offense" (Isa. 8:14; Rom. 9:33; 1 Pet. 2:8. Offending unbelievers is Christlike in the deepest sense.

God utterly forbid drinking blood (Lev. 3:17; 17:14). Israelites, from priests, to Pharisees, to average citizens, were at least superficially obsessed with "keeping the law." Thus when Jesus said whoever "drinks My blood has eternal life," (John 6:54) He was being extremely offensive, and intentionally so. Further, He made no effort whatsoever to clarify Himself. Rather, He let the offense work its ministry. Jesus knew He even offended His own followers. As He said to "His disciples" immediately afterward, "does this offend you?" (John 6:61).

When first hearing some of this, I was skeptical. But with experience I found most unbelievers don't respond to the mostly sincere but mushy, 'bless you brother', and 'Christianese' approach of many Christians and Christian television. It is an absolute turn off to 95% of the population. That surely is one reason heathens do not listen to Christians. There is only so much 'niceness' people can take. And all along, everyone thought the unbelievers were tuning out because they were unspiritual. But it turns out that many tune out Christians because we are unspiritual, or overly spiritual. Most people want to hear straight honest talk.

Being rough with the wicked does not automatically turn off unbelievers. A harsh style is difficult for more sensitive Christians to appreciate. However the biblical approach to communicating with the world includes not only compassion, but harshness as well.

The Bible sometimes ministers through ridicule, humor, sarcasm and even mocking. For example, God mocked the Midianites when He defeated them after sending a nightmare to them that they were being attacked by a loaf of bread (Jud. 7:13-14). Elijah, just prior to executing 450 prophets of Baal, "mocked them" as the Bible says, telling them to yell louder to their god so that Baal could hear their prayers since he was either on a trip, sleeping or in the restroom (Hebrew, "private place," 1 Ki. 18:27; and 2 Ki. 6:8-20).

When the Ad Council airs anti-drug public service announcements (PSAs) that mock "pot heads on Jeopardy" who cannot even remember their names, they are not motivated out of hatred, but out of love. Ridicule can and does save lives. "Why do you think they call it dope?" Ad Council spots run on Christian stations and get no criticism for being unloving or unkind. Why is it that Christians never rise up against the effort to stigmatize drug users? If a pagan brings peer pressure against "pot heads," that is accepted. Let a believer, however, use mockery to stigmatize fornication or sodomy, and the Church rises in condemnation. God, however, does not condemn those who "rebuke the wicked" (see Prov. 24:25).

God mocked Jeroboam, who "stretched out his hand from the altar" and ordered the prophet arrested. "Then his hand, which he stretched out toward him, withered, so that he could not pull it back to himself" (1 Ki. 13:4). God mocked the Philistines when they found Dagon their god "fallen on its face before the ark of the Lord. So they took Dagon and set it in its place again" (1 Sam. 5:3). The next morning they found Dagon toppled again, but this time he had lost his head (1 Sam. 5:4). God mocked the idolaters who cut down a branch, and with half of it they make a god to worship and with the other half, they make a fire to cook lunch (Is. 44:14-17). Another carves an idol of stone and says to it "wake up" (Hab. 2:18-19).

When a harsh word is needed God uses a harsh word. This is true in the Old and New Testaments. Herod beheaded John the Baptist for "rebuking" the king for "all the evils which Herod had done" (Luke 3:19) and for condemning the tetrarch for incestuous adultery (Mat. 14:3-4; Mark 6:17-18; Lev. 18:16; 20:21) with "Herodias, his brother Philip's wife" (Luke 3:19). Jesus warned of "the leaven of Herod" (Mark 8:15). When notified that "Herod wants to kill You," (Luke 13:31), Christ responded without respect, "Go, tell that fox, 'I cast out demons'…" (Luke 13:32).

The especially harsh term hypocrite is used in the Gospels twenty-three times. Christ often insulted the scribes, Pharisees and lawyers. He even called the Pharisees blind guides (Mat. 23:16, 24) and sons of hell (Mat. 23:15). Jesus spoke unkind words unacceptable today. He said to Peter "Get behind me, Satan" (Mat. 16:23). He told the Pharisees "You are of your father the devil" (John 8:44), and made a whip and cleared "thieves" from the temple (Mat. 21:12-13; Mark 11:15-17; Luke 19:45-46; John 2:14:15).

Gentiles (as symbols of the godless) and sodomites are called "dogs" in the Bible (Mat. 7:6; 15:26; Deut. 23:17-18; Ps. 22:16; 59:5-6; Phil. 3:2; Rev. 22:15). And Jesus was harsh (not only to the Pharisees, as some believers wrongly assume but) to all the unrepentant (see His use of "hypocrite"). Jesus instructs Christians to not "cast your pearls before swine" (Mat. 7:6). Yet the silly dilemma now is, "Who could Christ possibly have meant by that, for we are too loving, tolerant, polite and respectful to refer to any human being by that mean-spirited term."

In the King James Version, the seductive women among the people of God are worse than "whores" (Ezek. 16:33). That crude term appears in the Bible dozens of times. The men who use those women are "whoremongers" (1 Tim. 1:10; Heb. 13:4; Rev. 21:8; 22:15), which is the most raw term in the English language to describe promiscuous men. God describes other sinners in terms of filthy excrement (Isa. 64:6) and even worse (2 Ki. 18:27; Isa. 36:12). Sinners truly are repulsive, regardless of how men may try to sanitize them.

The Bible does not say, "Hate the sin, love the sinner." It says, "As a man thinks in his heart, so is he" (Prov. 23:7). And that God hates "all workers of iniquity" (Ps 5:5). "The Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man" (Ps 5:6). Also "the wicked and the one who loves violence God hates." (Ps 11:5). Further, "The face of the Lord is against those who do evil" (Ps 34:16). God "loves righteousness and hates wickedness (Ps. 45:7).

There are six things "the Lord hates," including "a heart that devises wicked plans… a false witness who speaks lies, and one who sows discord among brethren" (Prov. 6:16-19). And God reminds us "All their wickedness is in Gilgal, for there I hated them. Because of the evil of their deeds I will drive them from My house; I will love them no more" (Ho 9:13). As Moses wrote of God, "if you do not obey Me... My soul shall abhor you" (Lev. 26:27-30).

Even in the New Testament, Paul wrote, "Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil" (Rom. 12:9) introducing the concept of hypocritical love. What is hypocritical love? "Should you… love those who hate the Lord? Therefore the wrath of the Lord is upon you" (2 Chr. 19:2). Warning the wicked of the coming judgment is harsh, but is a necessary component of acceptable love. A love that is not hypocritical rebukes and condemns, and then points the way to God.

God uses different methods to communicate the Gospel to people at different depths of depravity. At times, a Christian can pray with an unbeliever. At other times, a believer might ridicule the unrepentant in hopes of waking him up. Painful communication though is in no way reserved just for non-Christians.

Paul uses dripping sarcasm telling the Corinthians that they do not need his counsel because they are full, rich, wise, strong and distinguished. They are even like kings, and all that without Paul's help (1 Cor. 4:8, 10). Sarcasm stigmatizes destructive behavior and prods people toward righteousness (1 Cor. 4:14). Paul also fell short of today's compassionate Christianity when he wrote that the government should minister terror, wrath and vengeance against the evildoer and that the sword should be used against them (Rom. 13:3-4). The Apostle also erred by today's standards calling unbelievers fools (Rom. 1:22) and the Galatians fools (Gal. 3:1, 3). Incidentally, Jesus also called men fools (Mat. 23:17, 19; 25:2-8; Luke 11:40; 12:20) when appropriate but never "without a cause" (Mat. 5:22) according to His teaching. As King David wrote, "The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God.'" (Ps. 53:1). Thus, atheists are fools and it is cruel to withhold this knowledge from them.

Christians enjoy quoting, "No weapon formed against you shall prosper." However many shudder at the rest of the verse. For thus says the Lord, "Every tongue which rises against you in judgment you shall condemn" (Isa. 54:17). Jesus taught that human beings will condemn the wicked. "The men of Nineveh will rise in the judgment with this generation and condemn it" (Mat. 12:41). Jesus said, "For God so loved the world." Everyone knows that verse, but then two verses later He added, "but he who does not believe is condemned already" (John 3:18). By today's Christian standard, no unbeliever would know that he is condemned, because most believers will not communicate this vital truth. John 3:16 is nice. John 3:18 is not nice.

Of course God has a benevolent type love for all, meaning he desires the best for them. That love however, will not save them on judgement day. God will not cast the sin into hell, and bring the sinner into heaven. Only those who have repented and have a 'relational love' with the Lord will be with Him in Paradise.

Sometimes Jesus was rude. He was asked a question that goes to the very heart of His ministry. "Who gave you this authority?" (Mat. 21:23). Within the answer to that question lies eternal life, yet Christ was not inclined to answer them. Rather, He asked them a question, which they failed to answer (Mat. 21:24-27). Therefore He said to them that neither would He answer their question (Mat. 21:27; see also Luke 22:67 and John 12:34-36).

When people misunderstood Jesus He often made no effort to explain Himself. Quite to the contrary, He often purposely let His hearers misconstrue His words (John 2:18-22). Jesus let people walk away in unbelief without running after them. The Bible does not record Him as saying, "I'm sorry, did you misunderstand me?" He is the "stumbling block," and if men wanted to stumble, He let them. For those who want to hang themselves, He invites them (Rev. 22:11). Jesus made the rope available. He is that rope (Rom. 9:33).

Jesus was a man, not a girl. Christianity today has been emasculated. Men and women are different and they communicate differently. Women are softer and nicer than men, and thank God that they are. However, men are not supposed to be women. Today, Christian ministers are expected to behave like women. That foolishness is a death sentence for many unbelievers. Strength, confidence, conviction and tough love appeal to those who are searching. Thus Jesus is a beacon to real seekers. But for those wanting to get lost, Christ is like a street sign that has been reversed by a troublemaker.

Today we are way nicer than God. It is tragic. This spiritual plateau that the Church has reached conveniently reduces the chances for confrontation. Nice people rarely rebuke, judge, confront, accuse or condemn. Nice people have less stress. It seems the only ones that Christians are quick to judge and condemn are fellow believers who judge and condemn the wicked. Go figure.


(Many thanks to my friend Pastor Enyart of Denver Bible Church for much of this material.)

[Tim Russ]

Well, I'd like to respond to that 10 page article that you copied and pasted from your friend but then you and I wouldn't be having a conversation any longer.

I can tell you after taking the time to read it though that the vast majority is taken out of context and filled with assumptions.

[Tony]

Yea, the beginning is mine and I added stuff here and there, but enough of it's his material that I thought I should mention him. I do agree with him though or I wouldn't have posted it. Sorry it's so long; it is about 6 pages. I just didn't want to leave anything out.   

You made a couple interesting comments in your previous post I might get back to.

[Ro]

I have been out of the loop for a few days with all my traveling.   But wanted to take the time to comment on this one (and you know I won't be able to comment on just one topic, if time permits). 

When I saw this thread here my first thought was, 'WHAT?'  How can we be nicer than God.  It is all in how you define 'nice'.  I am not splitting hairs here, like what the definition of 'is' is, but lets define 'nice'.   

When you say nice, what do we mean?

Let's see the definition of nice.

According to www.dictionary.com the definition of nice is:

1. pleasing; agreeable; delightful: a nice visit. 
2. amiably pleasant; kind: They are always nice to strangers. 
3. characterized by, showing, or requiring great accuracy, precision, skill, tact, care, or delicacy: nice workmanship; a nice shot; a nice handling of a crisis. 
4. showing or indicating very small differences; minutely accurate, as instruments: a job that requires nice measurements. 
5. minute, fine, or subtle: a nice distinction. 
6. having or showing delicate, accurate perception: a nice sense of color. 
7. refined in manners, language, etc.: Nice people wouldn't do such things. 
8. virtuous; respectable; decorous: a nice girl. 
9. suitable or proper: That was not a nice remark. 
10. carefully neat in dress, habits, etc.
11. (esp. of food) dainty or delicate.
12. having fastidious, finicky, or fussy tastes: They're much too nice in their dining habits to enjoy an outdoor barbecue. 
13. Obsolete. coy, shy, or reluctant.
14. Obsolete. unimportant; trivial.
15. Obsolete. wanton. 

In reviewing that list the blaring thing that pops out to me is that when we think of being nice we think of someone agreeing with us.  We always like that when people agree with us, all of us tend to like that.  What I see as the issue here is that what we want in 'nice' is different than what God wants in 'nice'.  We want people to agree with us and ignore our shortcomings.  However, God goes farther than just being nice.  He loves us.  He loves us so much he will not let us stay in our sins.  At just the right time he shows us our sins.  He loves us with a perfect love.  That goes beyond just being nice. 

Please note #4 above....'very small differences'.  That one struck me as vitally important.   Could it be that the more LIKE Jesus we become the 'nicer' he becomes?  The more like Jesus we think and act and do the more nice he appears to us. 

Our Father in Heaven, Jesus our Lord and Savior and the Holy Spirit are all nice.  They are REAL nice.  We mortal humans with carnal human nature are quite a bit unlike God.  The more we become like him, the more we begin to think like him and act like him and talk like him and LOVE like him.  God is much nicer than we are.  He is REAL nice.