Author Topic: Who would Jesus vote for?  (Read 1466 times)

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Offline Tony

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Who would Jesus vote for?
« on: October 14, 2008, 12:07:04 PM »
Since I couldn't stir up any interest on my last question, (Is America still a Christian country?)  :-X  I thought I would try a similar but different topic that is pretty important, as well as timely. I realize this has the potential to be controversial, but, then again, so was Jesus. From what I've noticed even when people disagree around here they don't seem to get 'mean spirited' about it. So I am really curious as to what other Christians think about this subject. Given the views and voting records of the 2 candidates, does anyone think Jesus would have voted for the "lesser of two evils", or would He have "thrown away" His vote by voting for someone in one of the lesser known parties such as the American Independent Party, Libertarian, or something or someone else?  Would He not have voted at all, and if not, should we?

Any Thoughts?    :)

Offline Tim Russ

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Re: Who would Jesus vote for?
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2008, 04:50:00 PM »
Since Jesus followed both the Jewish Law and the Roman Law it's hard to imagine he wouldn't vote.  He made it very clear to Peter when it came to taxes that we were to render (give) to Caesar (the government) things that belonged to the government.  So if we have an obligation to vote for the government officials I'm pretty sure Jesus would have voted.

Now, having expressed that.  I think this next part may be a bit controversial so buckle up your seat belt. :)

I think most Christians completely miss the point when it comes to electing governing officials.  We don't live in a theocracy.  We live in a democratic republic.  The separation of church and state is a good thing from two different directions.  First, we don't want the state (government) to establish approved religions and outlawing those it doesn't like.  Second, we don't want any religion deciding who will govern us.

Imagine or a second if you will...  The government modifies Christianity and includes things that you may not agree with.  For instance, you must accept homosexuals in your congregation, you must marry homosexuals, you must allow sexual partners who are living together without marriage, etc.  I doubt anyone would want their own belief system dictated to them.

Then imagine if you will... You're a Christian and the Muslim religion becomes very popular (politically correct).  The Muslims begin to outnumber Christians in this country and they vote exclusively for Muslim leaders who pass laws favoring Islamic Law and making Christian practices illegal.

Whenever you cross the lines of Church and State it's a nightmare.

Now, to clarify, I don't believe in voting for the lesser of two evils.  I see that as a negative viewpoint.  Rather, I believe in voting for the best possible choice even if the choices are less than perfect.  After all, any time you deal with mankind you're going to have imperfection.

So, lean to the positive.  Avoid negative viewpoints.  Do your civic duty and vote for the best option available.

;)


Offline Tony

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How do you think Jesus and/or other Godly men would vote?
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2009, 06:10:38 PM »
"America was intended to be a Christian Nation by it's Founders and operate under Biblical principles. It was never intended to have a nationwide denomination just a nationwide God; the Creator and God of the Bible."
- Tony Eversgerd...

"Our Constitution was made ONLY for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
John Adams

" No Free government exists in the world, except where Christianity is acknowledged, and is the religion of the country."
1824 Supreme Court of the United States.

John Jay:
“ Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” Source: October 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed., (New York: Burt Franklin, 1970), Vol. IV, p. 393.

“Whether our religion permits Christians to vote for infidel rulers is a question which merits more consideration than it seems yet to have generally received either from the clergy or the laity. It appears to me that what the prophet said to Jehoshaphat about his attachment to Ahab ["Shouldest thou help the ungodly and love them that hate the Lord?" 2 Chronicles 19:2] affords a salutary lesson.” [The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, 1794-1826, Henry P. Johnston, editor (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1893), Vol. IV, p.365]

Samuel Johnston:
• “It is apprehended that Jews, Mahometans (Muslims), pagans, etc., may be elected to high offices under the government of the United States. Those who are Mahometans, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President or other high office, [unless] first the people of America lay aside the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves.
[Elliot’s Debates, Vol. IV, pp 198-199, Governor Samuel Johnston, July 30, 1788 at the North Carolina Ratifying Convention]

Noah Webster:
Let it be impressed on your mind that God commands you to choose for rulers just men who will rule in the fear of God [Exodus 18:21]. . . . If the citizens neglect their duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted . . . If our government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the Divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the laws. [Noah Webster, The History of the United States (New Haven: Durrie and Peck, 1832), pp. 336-337, 49

Article 22 of the constitution of Delaware (1776)
Required all officers, besides taking an oath of allegiance, to make and subscribe to the following declaration:
• "I, [name], do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."

“Rulers are appointed for this very end - to be ministers of God for good. The people have a right to expect this from them and to require it, not as an act of grace, but as their reasonable due. It is the express of implicit condition upon which they were chosen and continued in public office, that they attend continually upon this very thing. There time, their abilities, their authority-by their acceptance of the public trust- are consecrated to the community, and cannot in justice be withheld...In justice to the people, and in faithfulness to God, they must either sustain it with fidelity, or resign the office.” — Samuel Cooke, A.M. of Cambridge, Mass, Election Sermon 1770

“This is the sole end for which God has ordained that magistrates should be appointed — that they may carry on his benevolent purposes in promoting the good and happiness of human society; and hence their power is said to be from God; that is, it is so while they employ it according to his will. But when they act against the good of society, they cannot be said to act by authority from God, any more than a servant can be said to act by his master’s authority while he acts directly contrary to his will.” — Beza (Calvin’s student)

“It is not easy to determine who are the more criminal. They who would make their way to places of power and trust by indirect means, or they who have so little concern for the welfare of their country as to harken to them.” — Jonathan Mayhew D.D. of Boston 1754

“Let each citizen remember at the moment he is offering his vote that he is not making a present or a compliment to please an individual — or at least that he ought not so to do; but that he is executing one of the most solemn trusts in human society for which he is accountable to God and his country.” — Samuel Adams, The Writings of Samuel Adams, 1781

“Civil magistrates must be just, ruling in the fear of God.” — Election Sermon of Charles Chauncey, 1747

“Look well to the characters and qualifications of those you elect and raise to office and places of trust.” — Matthias Burnett, Pastor of the First Baptist Church in Norwalk, An Election Sermon, Preached at Hartford, on the Day of the Anniversary Election, May 12, 1803

“In selecting men for office, let principle be your guide. Regard not the particular sect or denomination of the candidate — look to his character.” — Noah Webster, Letters to a Young Gentleman Commencing His Education to Which is Subjoined a Brief History of the United States (New Haven: S. Converse, 1823), p. 18.

“When you become entitled to exercise the right of voting for public officers, let it be impressed on your mind that God commands you to choose for rulers, “just men who will rule in the fear of God.” The preservation of government depends on the faithful discharge of this duty; if the citizens neglect their duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted; laws will be made, not for the public good so much as for selfish or local purposes; corrupt or incompetent men will be appointed to execute the laws; the public revenues will be squandered on unworthy men; and the rights of the citizens will be violated or disregarded. If a republican government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the laws.” — Noah Webster, History of the United States (New Haven: Durrie & Peck, 1832), pp. 336-337, 49

 How prophetic Noah Webster was in the above paragraph, exactly describing the condition of America in 2009, more than 175 years later.

I believe the preponderance of the evidence written here, displays the fact, that God, as well as the Founders, desired a Christian Nation, not just in word, but in deed. People can argue semantics night and day over what is or isn't a 'Christian Nation', or only having 2 choices, it matters not to God.
It is our duty to only put Godly men in office. If the 2 Party system does not give us such a candidate, we must look elsewhere, for we shall all answer to the Lord, for who we vote for.

I personally believe the blame of the unGodly present day state of our Nation lays at
the doorstep of the Church, and our compromising with the world.

2 Chronicles 7:14 (New King James Version)

"If My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land."






Offline Tim Russ

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Re: Who would Jesus vote for?
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2009, 04:24:34 PM »
Tony,

Quoting over 1,000 words and only providing 183 of your own words is considered to be spamming.  You need to learn how to be appropriate on forums or you’ll keep having problems on them.

The topic you started was about who we felt Jesus would vote for, not whether or not this country is a Christian government or whether it was designed to be one.  You need to stay on topic.  If you want to talk about something outside the scope of a thread then start a new thread.

There is a difference between debating, arguing, flaming, and being inflammatory.  Debating is allowed on this forum.  None of the others are allowed.  Please stop participating in these practices on the forum.

You will not persuade people with unsupported, dogmatic statements like, “It is our duty to only put Godly men in office.”  This is the kind of language that polarized people.  Polarization causes division.  This behavior is frowned upon in the bible.  (1 Corinthians 3:3 KJV)  For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?



"America was intended to be a Christian Nation by it's Founders and operate under Biblical principles. It was never intended to have a nationwide denomination just a nationwide God; the Creator and God of the Bible."
- Tony Eversgerd...

"Our Constitution was made ONLY for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
John Adams

" No Free government exists in the world, except where Christianity is acknowledged, and is the religion of the country."
1824 Supreme Court of the United States.

John Jay:
“ Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” Source: October 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed., (New York: Burt Franklin, 1970), Vol. IV, p. 393.

“Whether our religion permits Christians to vote for infidel rulers is a question which merits more consideration than it seems yet to have generally received either from the clergy or the laity. It appears to me that what the prophet said to Jehoshaphat about his attachment to Ahab ["Shouldest thou help the ungodly and love them that hate the Lord?" 2 Chronicles 19:2] affords a salutary lesson.” [The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, 1794-1826, Henry P. Johnston, editor (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1893), Vol. IV, p.365]

Samuel Johnston:
• “It is apprehended that Jews, Mahometans (Muslims), pagans, etc., may be elected to high offices under the government of the United States. Those who are Mahometans, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President or other high office, [unless] first the people of America lay aside the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves.
[Elliot’s Debates, Vol. IV, pp 198-199, Governor Samuel Johnston, July 30, 1788 at the North Carolina Ratifying Convention]

Noah Webster:
Let it be impressed on your mind that God commands you to choose for rulers just men who will rule in the fear of God [Exodus 18:21]. . . . If the citizens neglect their duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted . . . If our government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the Divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the laws. [Noah Webster, The History of the United States (New Haven: Durrie and Peck, 1832), pp. 336-337, 49

Article 22 of the constitution of Delaware (1776)
Required all officers, besides taking an oath of allegiance, to make and subscribe to the following declaration:
• "I, [name], do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."

“Rulers are appointed for this very end - to be ministers of God for good. The people have a right to expect this from them and to require it, not as an act of grace, but as their reasonable due. It is the express of implicit condition upon which they were chosen and continued in public office, that they attend continually upon this very thing. There time, their abilities, their authority-by their acceptance of the public trust- are consecrated to the community, and cannot in justice be withheld...In justice to the people, and in faithfulness to God, they must either sustain it with fidelity, or resign the office.” — Samuel Cooke, A.M. of Cambridge, Mass, Election Sermon 1770

“This is the sole end for which God has ordained that magistrates should be appointed — that they may carry on his benevolent purposes in promoting the good and happiness of human society; and hence their power is said to be from God; that is, it is so while they employ it according to his will. But when they act against the good of society, they cannot be said to act by authority from God, any more than a servant can be said to act by his master’s authority while he acts directly contrary to his will.” — Beza (Calvin’s student)

“It is not easy to determine who are the more criminal. They who would make their way to places of power and trust by indirect means, or they who have so little concern for the welfare of their country as to harken to them.” — Jonathan Mayhew D.D. of Boston 1754

“Let each citizen remember at the moment he is offering his vote that he is not making a present or a compliment to please an individual — or at least that he ought not so to do; but that he is executing one of the most solemn trusts in human society for which he is accountable to God and his country.” — Samuel Adams, The Writings of Samuel Adams, 1781

“Civil magistrates must be just, ruling in the fear of God.” — Election Sermon of Charles Chauncey, 1747

“Look well to the characters and qualifications of those you elect and raise to office and places of trust.” — Matthias Burnett, Pastor of the First Baptist Church in Norwalk, An Election Sermon, Preached at Hartford, on the Day of the Anniversary Election, May 12, 1803

“In selecting men for office, let principle be your guide. Regard not the particular sect or denomination of the candidate — look to his character.” — Noah Webster, Letters to a Young Gentleman Commencing His Education to Which is Subjoined a Brief History of the United States (New Haven: S. Converse, 1823), p. 18.

“When you become entitled to exercise the right of voting for public officers, let it be impressed on your mind that God commands you to choose for rulers, “just men who will rule in the fear of God.” The preservation of government depends on the faithful discharge of this duty; if the citizens neglect their duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted; laws will be made, not for the public good so much as for selfish or local purposes; corrupt or incompetent men will be appointed to execute the laws; the public revenues will be squandered on unworthy men; and the rights of the citizens will be violated or disregarded. If a republican government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the laws.” — Noah Webster, History of the United States (New Haven: Durrie & Peck, 1832), pp. 336-337, 49

 How prophetic Noah Webster was in the above paragraph, exactly describing the condition of America in 2009, more than 175 years later.

I believe the preponderance of the evidence written here, displays the fact, that God, as well as the Founders, desired a Christian Nation, not just in word, but in deed. People can argue semantics night and day over what is or isn't a 'Christian Nation', or only having 2 choices, it matters not to God.

It is our duty to only put Godly men in office. If the 2 Party system does not give us such a candidate, we must look elsewhere, for we shall all answer to the Lord, for who we vote for.

I personally believe the blame of the unGodly present day state of our Nation lays at the doorstep of the Church, and our compromising with the world.

2 Chronicles 7:14 (New King James Version)

"If My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land."


Offline Tony

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Re: How do you think Jesus and other Godly men would vote?
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2009, 08:49:09 PM »
I'm really sorry you feel that way. The post was only meant to be informative of what our Founders believed about voting for Godly men. The first 2 or 3 statements at the beginning of the post were about what kind of Nation our Founders envisioned and were important to set up the proceeding statements about what kind of men could best govern that Country. That was an important part of my post, I then went on to quote early American leaders on their views on voting, etc. Their views on the founding principles of this Country greatly influenced their voting decisions and rightly so. Therefore the comments were appropriate to the topic and not off topic at all if examined in their full context.
 
I don't know how to stay on topic any better than that. Some of them quoted scripture but virtually all were Christians as far as I know. I happen to agree with them. Christians are to have the 'Mind of Christ'. That's why I quoted them. If we vote Godly Christian men into public office then we will have a better Country all the way around. If we vote in people with seriously flawed views on religion or other matters, then we end up with a country headed the direction ours is. This is the heart and soul of my post and I was only trying to express it with the love of God and common sense.

 I understand others don't always agree, I sometimes don't agree with you. (abortion/homosexuality.) I understand I get a bit passionate sometimes as well, but I thought what I said was appropriate, not spamming, flaming or inflammatory or whatever. It was not intended that way. If you carefully read some of the Founders statements they really are not that unlike mine, and yet you don't criticize them.
I wasn't even debating anyone. I didn't even read your post before I posted. I put this info up for Christians that visit your website to consider. Just because I speak with confidence and authority Tim, doesn't mean I'm spamming, flaming or inflammatory.
The Bible states:  'There is wisdom in many counselors'. So I quoted many 'counselors'.
 I think possibly you misconstrue my meaning.

Do you really think God would disagree with me about electing Godly men into office?
I'm afraid I just don't understand. I guess I could adjust the subject title slightly but I don't see the big deal to be honest.

I considered your quote of 1 Co. 3:3 to be totally inappropriate. It  appears you are attacking me, saying I'm causing strife and envy along with being carnal and causing divisions. Forgive me brother, but aren't you engaging in what your accusing me of? I really don't think I've done anything wrong and my conscience is clear on this. The ironic thing is I came to believers bay this evening to post something called 'love speech'.

 I truly don't understand the animosity brother. Are you sure you're not still upset about the 'homosexual post' or because I was ribbing you about the censorship or something else maybe? I'm afraid to post anything now. I've known you a long time and what I write here is nothing new to you, that's why I say maybe something else is going on here. Maybe you could think/pray about it and get back to me later if you like.

I hope we can remain friends through this and I enjoy posting here, but I'm not sure I should continue if it must be under such rigid control that I feel like I'm 'walking on thin ice' constantly.

 There isn't much freedom or grace in that my friend; to tell you the truth it feels more like legalism, however, I really don't think that is your desire.

(I debated saying this much on the forum, but I guess since you criticized me publicly, I have a right to respond publicly, and to say I don't believe I'm being treated fairly. Perhaps any further conversation should be done privately.)   


Offline Tim Russ

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Re: How do you think Jesus and /or other Godly men would vote?
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2009, 10:16:01 PM »
Not a problem, brother.

You have a right to your opinion. 

You also have a right to the consequences of your opinion.

Effective immediately you've been banned.  I will not tolerate hate speech, inflamatory posts, refusal to respond to correction, or arguing with administrative decisions. 



Offline Tim Russ

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Re: Who would Jesus vote for?
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2009, 02:57:45 PM »
Thank you for the email, Tony.  I'll respond to it in the next few days.  I've lifted your ban because of what you shared in the email.

Hopefully we can move forward without encountering any further problems.