Author Topic: When is Sin not Sin?  (Read 4182 times)

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Offline Tony

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Re: When is Sin not Sin?
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2009, 11:14:05 PM »
 I'm going to have to skip some material I should cover first, so I can answer your questions. We can cover this in more detail later if you wish. Recently, thru life's experiences, Bible study and research I'm becoming more and more convinced that a good deal of what I've been taught is wrong. I hope I am able to present this material in a clear manner. I may have to 'modify' a little hear and there.

FIRST OFF: How does one 'rightly divide the word of truth,' and discern the things that differ between Israel and the Body? The first step is to identify to whom a command or statement is addressed.

ONE KEY VERSE can clear up a multitude of problem verses, doctrinal disagreements, etc. (Gal. 2:7):

From it, we understand that Paul was sent to the Gentiles, while Peter and the others went only to Israel. They had intended to go to 'all nations', Mat.28:19. However, there was a 'plot twist' (as God is wont to do). Peter, James & John determined to go only 'to the circumcised.' Gal. 2:9 and NOT to every nation. Even their converts preached to 'no one but the Jews only',
Acts 11:19 and addressed their epistles to the Jews. 1 Pet. 1:1; James 1:1; 3 John 6-7.

When we realize this, it clears up so many seemingly contrary passages. You quoted 1 John, and many love to quote James. The great Martin Luther wanted to tear the book of James out of the Bible. Luther did not understand James' statements about justification by faith plus works. In the interest of time I'll just say for now, these epistles were addressed to the house of Israel NOT the body of Christ. Therein is where the confusion laid. As we delve into this more at a later date, we will see clearly how this relieves the tension between the scriptures. There are no longer any 'problem verses!'

NOW A LITTLE ABOUT THE LAW:

'But we know that The Law is Good IF one uses it lawfully, knowing this: that the law is NOT made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and... sinners...for murderers...for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers...  1 Tim. 8-10

The law only speaks to those under it, that is, the entire unbelieving world:

'Now we know that Whatever the Law says, it says to those who are under the Law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the World may become guilty before God'. Rom. 3:19

However, for believers, Christ is the end of the law:

'For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. Rom. 10:4

And yet the law is still a powerful force in today's world:

'The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law'. 1 Co. 15:56
(I want your neighbors to keep the law also.)...
 If they are under the law they need it; if they love the Lord they don't.

The law brings unbelievers to Christ:

'Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor'. Gal. 3:24-25

The law's ministry is critical and therefore it could not previously have passed away since it remains today.

'Therefore the law is holy'...  Rom. 7:12

The law helps bring men to Christ by alerting them to their sin:

...'for by the law is the knowledge of sin'. Rom. 3:20

WHAT THE LAW COULD NOT DO...

Men try without end to make and enforce laws, spiritual rules and regulations, that they believe will help further the cause of righteousness.

This effort is called legalism. Legalism is the use of any law to produce righteousness. All laws are equally incapable of this task, including the 10 commandments, the entire Mosaic law, circumcision, and the rules and regulations invented by churches for their members to adhere to.

The effort is wasted because if there had been a law given which could have produced righteous, then:
...Truly righteousness would have been obtained by the (Mosaic) law. Gal. 3:21

Alas, even God's law is unable to effect righteous living, which led to Paul's condemnation of the use of any laws to achieve victory over the flesh:

Therefore if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations... Col. 2:20

WHAT REPLACES THE LAW?... (Please read carefully, these are Powerful verses.)...

GOD. The more glorious ministry of the SPIRIT!

'But if the MINISTRY OF DEATH, WRITTEN AND ENGRAVED ON STONES was glorious, WHICH glory WAS PASSING AWAY, How Will The Ministry of The SPIRIT Not Be MORE GLORIOUS?' 2 Co. 3:7-8; and see: 2 Co. 3:9-11 also.

'You Foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?' (i.e., by keeping the law) Gal. 3:2-3

I've mentioned the purpose of the law briefly, but I will revisit that more fully later. For now, let me end with this:

...forgiven you all trespasses, having Wiped out the Hand-Writing of requirements (the law) that was against us, which was Contrary To Us. And He has taken it out of the way, having NAILED IT TO THE CROSS...  Therefore let no one judge you in food or drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths...  Col. 2:13-14, 16

What believer would descend into hell to resurrect the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil? Or climb onto the cross to let loose the law again? I don't think any of us knowingly would do such a thing, but sadly, it seems many Christians (myself included) have tried to tear loose the nails of Christ and resurrect the Tree.

I may add more to this post later, especially if I haven't answered your questions sufficiently. Please don't hesitate to question me, I will answer as I have time. These thoughts are a departure from my previous views, but I believe, more accurate. I love discovering truth, and to me, that is more important than being right.  (That doesn't mean I'm right and anyone else is wrong necessarily.) The more we learn about our Lord, His ways, and His Word, the closer we can become to Him.






















Offline Tony

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Re: When is Sin not Sin?
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2009, 12:30:56 PM »
For those who read my last 2 posts on this subject, please reread as I have modified them a bit.
I would like to follow up just a bit more on the subject of Law; Mosaic law/10 commandments.

RIGHTEOUSNESS APART FROM THE LAW:

Murder was wrong before the Mosaic law was given. (Ask Cain, Ge. 4:13)
Adultery was wrong...                                          (Ask Abimelech, Ge. 20:17)
Kidnapping was wrong...                                        (Ask Cherdorlaomer, Ge. 14:12)
Sodomy was wrong...                                            (Ask Gomorrah, Ge. 19:24)
Stealing was wrong...                                            (Ask Rachel, Ge. 31:32)

These sins are still wrong today... Gal.5:21;5:19; 1Tim. 1:10; Ro.13:9
God, through the apostle Paul commands Christians to abstain from such behavior.

There is a huge difference, however, between Paul saying do not steal, and the law saying do not steal.
The difference is that the law comes with an inescapable curse: 'All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of law to do them.'  Gal. 3:10

Paul's command, on the other hand, if rejected DOES NOT bring guilt and condemnation.
Paul addressed his writings to those in the body who are bathed in forgiveness, no longer under condemnation.
As a result, sin loses much of it's power over the believer.
It is no longer the monster that will destroy, but the nuisance that needs to be set aside.

What will better motivate us (believers) to righteousness? The law, or the Spirit? The law or grace?
The law or faith? What works?

'But now the righteousness of God APART FROM THE LAW IS REVEALED... Rom. 3:21

To be continued...

Offline Tim Russ

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Re: When is Sin not Sin?
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2009, 04:30:53 PM »

The key to understanding this, (at least in my view) is to realize there were 2 different covenants in operation at the same time in the Acts period. Paul was preaching his 'dispensation of grace' while the twelve were following their
'covenant of circumcision' with their existing converts. This lead to confusion then, and still does today.

 


Actually there was one new convenant but two types of people being ushered into those covenants.

Group one were Jews.
Group two were Gentiles (nonJews).

The Jews felt the need to continue to follow the laws they had been taught while adding the Messiah into the mix. 
The Gentiles had no such traditions & practices so they simply embraced what Paul taught.

I think the Jews missed the freedom they could have had under the message Paul taught.  I think the Gentiles lost a lot of the tradition they could have had.  As with most things a balance would have probably been best as long as they all embraced the freedom from the law and made grace and Christ their focus.

Offline Tim Russ

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Re: When is Sin not Sin?
« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2009, 05:49:12 PM »
Are you saying that we do not have to keep the 10 Commandments? 


I’m saying that we do not have to keep the 10 commandments.

Quote
Paul says in Romans 6:1--- That we are not to go on sinning so grace can abound. The answer he gives is no.


The key here is ‘so grace can abound'.  I’m not advocating sinning but then Christians can’t sin so what you’re talking about is impossible.
(1 John 3:9 NIV)  No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
(1 John 3:9 NASB)  No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
(1 John 3:9 KJV)  Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

As you can see here Christians cannot sin.  Sin doesn’t apply to Christians.


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In I John 1:8 we see we can sin, therefore there must be a law.  That is why we need grace. 


Let’s examine some verses:
(1 John 1:6-7 NIV)  If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. {7} But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

Let’s reverse what’s being said here.  If you’re covered by the blood of Jesus you’ve been purified from ALL sin.  It’s impossible to walk in darkness (spiritual death).  You will have fellowship with him.

The only other way to translate this is to say there’s no security in the grace God has given us through Jesus.  This would mean that every time we commit ‘a sin’ we lose our salvation and we have to be born again…again…and again…and again…etc.  This contradicts the whole of scripture that says we can trust God to care for us.  So it can’t be the way the scripture is being read.

(1 John 1:8-9 NIV)  If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. {9} If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Now the salvation process can clearly be seen here.  Confession of sin, forgiveness of sins, purification, and righteousness.  The reason this book was written was to address a split that had occurred within the church.  One of the clearest messages in this book is the real foundational principles of the faith.  One of the things those who had split off were promoting was a lack of sinfulness.  In other words they were claiming they had no need of Christ’s work on the cross because they were without sin.

Paul is addressing that issue in verse 8.  He’s saying that everyone sins.  ((Romans 3:21-24 NIV)  But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. {22} This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, {23} for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, {24} and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.)

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If we have grace it is because there is a law.  It is the law of God.


Obviously The Law has it’s place.  It’s a means of showing us that we need grace.  (Galatians 3:23-25 NIV)  Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. {24} So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. {25} Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Quote
In Rom 7:7 - Paul says the law is not sin.  It shows us what sin is. 

Rom 7:12 - The law is Holy and the commandment is Holy righteous and good.


I agree.  The Law is good.  It isn’t sin.  The Law is Holy.  However, nobody can keep The Law.  If they could, they’d be perfect and they would not have to die or go to hell.  Break one law and you’re guilty of breaking them all.  That’s not freedom.

(James 2:10-13 NIV)  For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. {11} For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker. {12} Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, {13} because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

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I want my neighbors to keep all 10 Commandments.  There is not one I would like for them to give up.  Would I want them to become thieves????  They could steal from me.  Would I want them to be liars and lie to me?  Then we can get into adultery etc. 


It isn’t what you want for your neighbors that counts.  It’s what you do in your own life that counts.

Quote
The law of God gives us the guidelines to follow and when we sin we are forgiven because of the grace of God because of the sacrifice of Jesus our Lord and Savior.  If we have no law then we do not need grace.

I am not trying to be preachy, I just wanted to understand what you were saying and if I understood tha correctly. :)


The Law doesn’t give us guidelines to follow.  The Law exposes sin.  It’s purpose was to make us realize that we were sinners in need of being saved.
(Romans 5:20-21 NIV)  The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, {21} so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Following the 10 commandments adds absolutely NO spiritual value to our walk with Christ. 

(Romans 3:20-24 NIV)  Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. {21} But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. {22} This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, {23} for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, {24} and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

In fact, by depending upon The Law (circumcision) we fall from grace!!!

(Galatians 5:1-4 NIV)  It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. {2} Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. {3} Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. {4} You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

I know I’m not Tony and I don’t presume to speak for him but I wanted to answer your question.  Hope you don’t mind.  There is so very much to be shared on this subject that a whole library of books could be written about it. 

The 10 commandments are part of The Law so I thought I'd share a few verses of scripture found in the New Covenant that speak about The Law.  This is lengthy and i apologize in advance but I thought it might be beneficial to read them all in one place.

......


(Galatians 5:18 NIV)  But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

(Romans 6:14 NIV)  For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

(Romans 4:13-15 NIV)  It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. {14} For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, {15} because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

(Romans 3:19-21 NIV)  Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. {20} Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. {21} But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

(Romans 3:27-28 NIV)  Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. {28} For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

(Romans 7:6 NIV)  But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

(Romans 7:8 NIV)  But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead.

(Romans 8:1-4 NIV)  Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, {2} because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. {3} For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, {4} in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

(Romans 8:6-7 NIV)  The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; {7} the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.

(Romans 9:30-32 NIV)  What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; {31} but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. {32} Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone."

(Romans 10:4-5 NIV)  Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. {5} Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them."

(Romans 13:10 NIV)  Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

(Galatians 2:19 NIV)  For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God.

(Galatians 3:10-13 NIV)  All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." {11} Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." {12} The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." {13} Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

(Galatians 3:24-27 NIV)  So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. {25} Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. {26} You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, {27} for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

(Galatians 5:14 NIV)  The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

(Hebrews 7:12 NIV)  For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law.

(Hebrews 10:1 NIV)  The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.





Offline Tony

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Re: When is Sin not Sin?
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2009, 06:17:32 PM »
Insert Quote
Quote from: Tony on April 04, 2009, 06:35:48 PM

The key to understanding this, (at least in my view) is to realize there were 2 different covenants in operation at the same time in the Acts period. Paul was preaching his 'dispensation of grace' while the twelve were following their
'covenant of circumcision' with their existing converts. This lead to confusion then, and still does today.

 


Quote
Actually there was one new convenant but two types of people being ushered into those covenants.

Group one were Jews.
Group two were Gentiles (nonJews).

The Jews felt the need to continue to follow the laws they had been taught while adding the Messiah into the mix. 
The Gentiles had no such traditions & practices so they simply embraced what Paul taught.

I think the Jews missed the freedom they could have had under the message Paul taught.  I think the Gentiles lost a lot of the tradition they could have had.  As with most things a balance would have probably been best as long as they all embraced the freedom from the law and made grace and Christ their focus.


Yes, What a time they lived in! I can see how it would have been confusing. Especially for hard-core Jewish converts. Acts was such a transitional period. There were MAJOR changes taking place that most didn't understand and were not happy with. So there was some 'compromise' for a period to usher in the 'dispensation of grace' or the
'gospel of the uncircumcised'.

 Much dispute at the Jerusalem Council; including certain converted Pharisees, who after they became Christians,
began to insist that the Gentiles should also be circumcised and keep the law of Moses. (see Acts 15)

They had to consider the matter because it was change. God had changed the 'marching orders.'
They were in the midst of a twist in the plot of the Bible. All the biblical evidence showed that God required circumcision for His followers. Jesus said nothing to change that. To the contrary, He was circumcised.
So Paul even had Timothy circumcised, it appears, to appease the Jews in that area, since it was common knowledge his father was Greek. Acts 16:1-3

So the twelve changed their plans, (by the authority Christ had given them) and went only to the Jews,
While Paul took the gospel of the uncircumcision to both Jew and Gentile.

Offline Ro

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Re: When is Sin not Sin?
« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2009, 09:57:23 PM »
I appreciate you two discussing this now.  I am a bit preoccupied this week.  I apologize for not joining in. 

Maybe next week. :)
Ro is a motivational speaker. She speaks at conferences, seminars, churches, Women's Ministries, or secular meetings.  Check out the site and book her for your event early to ensure her for your event.
http://www.RoLashua.com

Offline Tim Russ

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Re: When is Sin not Sin?
« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2009, 03:21:59 PM »
You're welcome, Ro.  You take your time and get back into the swing of things.  These kinds of discussions will be here whenever you're ready to get started.


Offline Ro

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Re: When is Sin not Sin?
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2009, 09:26:32 AM »
Thanks! I am trying to get some 'online' work done today.  Writing articles etc.

Also catching up on writing some articles and columns for BB and some writings for my ebooks. 

Didn't mean to break the flow here. 

Ro bows out so Tim and Tony can keep the thread going.
:)

Ro is a motivational speaker. She speaks at conferences, seminars, churches, Women's Ministries, or secular meetings.  Check out the site and book her for your event early to ensure her for your event.
http://www.RoLashua.com