Author Topic: Tithing  (Read 6655 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Jackie

  • On Probation
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 202
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Prayer woman in field with arms stretched
Tithing
« on: January 19, 2008, 04:19:07 PM »
Fundamentally this statement is like other statements I have read.  There is only one part of it where I do differ.  For now I won't say which particular part, because it is very contentious, and really not worth falling out for; not that I am saying anyone here would fall out with me :)

When I decide to share with you at length when I am in disagreement with one particular part of the statement you will understand why I have taken this position; well, I think you will anyway.

Trust in the Lord no matter how bad your situation seems, and don't think or worry about what's going on.  Concentrate your thoughts on the Lord and just ask the Holy Spirit to strengthen you and help you to pray the right prayers.  Pray earnestly, forgiving every single person that sins against you

Offline Tim Russ

  • Community Leader
  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 869
  • Karma: +6/-2
  • Gender: Male
    • The Gift Project
Tithing
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2008, 05:31:39 PM »
Well, there's always the PM (Private Message) function.  You could share it there now that you have me curious. :D

Offline Jackie

  • On Probation
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 202
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Prayer woman in field with arms stretched
Tithing
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2008, 07:58:45 PM »
When things aren't so hectic, I'll have to take time to share what it is.  For now I need to see things quieten down; some friends are going through some heavy duty stuff, and I've been a support system for them for a while, and still am at the moment.  It's like the way I share something; if I am not sensitive about the way I share something, someone can get hold of the wrong end of the stick and totally misunderstand what I am actually saying.

So, I need time to formulate what it is I will say, and then make sure I am communicating it accurately.  I recently learnt, sometimes it is better to stay silent about some things.  I believe the fundamental teachings in the statement about Jesus, and basically believing Jesus is God the Son born into a human body, and sacrificed as the perfect lamb of God for the sins of all mankind and resurrected to the right hand of God our Father to make intercession for us.

Jesus will come again...

I believe in the rapture and the millennial reign and the salvation of the nation of Israel.

Okay, I will risk being misunderstood here and say what I believe.

I don't believe tithing is stipulated by the Lord Jesus Christ for ordinary folk in the Church.  I believe each believer is to give as the Holy Spirit directs our hearts.  E.g. One time I gave £1000 to a Christian, but I gave because at the time I believed that is what I was led to do. 

I have sat with individuals who have said they have stayed away from a Christian Church because they were unable to give financially.  I do not believe the Lord would have anyone feel that they had to stay away for that reason.

I believe whatever outgoings are required, when we pray those outgoings will be provided, and if it is rent for a Church building, or a fuel bill, all those needs will be met when a body of believers pray.  If the Lord has tasks for people to do, like outreach or whatever, again those costs will be provided for through prayer.

So, basically that's where I am at with this; we give as the Holy Spirit guides us individually and putting a fixed amount on what we are required to give to the Church is not said by the Lord Jesus Christ.

If I am wrong on this, then it is up to the Lord to show me, but for now I'm really not into going into any long drawn out debates on the issue.  I've been drawn into enough debates on this subject on another Christian forum and got banned, not for that debate but for other things.

Trust in the Lord no matter how bad your situation seems, and don't think or worry about what's going on.  Concentrate your thoughts on the Lord and just ask the Holy Spirit to strengthen you and help you to pray the right prayers.  Pray earnestly, forgiving every single person that sins against you

Offline Ann Doupont

  • Columnist
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 399
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Gender: Female
    • The Writings of Ann Doupont
Tithing
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2008, 08:30:45 PM »
Regarding tithing, I've been a tither (believing in it from Malachi 3:10-11) since first hearing of it over 20 years ago.

From what I've seen in others, those who do not tithe (either because they don't believe in it or because they do believe in it and refuse to do it) have financial problems.

Since I tithe, I have the ability to claim the promise in Malachi and I do that, and He blesses me. If I didn't tithe, I couldn't claim that promise.

Love,

Ann
Please visit www.anndoupont.org to see my other writings.

Offline Jackie

  • On Probation
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 202
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Prayer woman in field with arms stretched
Tithing
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2008, 07:33:48 AM »
Well, there is a whole teaching that some Pastors teach to their flocks that if you tithe to their Church you're guaranteed financial prosperity and if you don't tithe you cannot even become a fully fledged member of their Church.  So what you have in such Churches is, a two-tiered system, where you have your fully fledged Christians who tithe to this Church, and those who don't for whatever reason.

I recently met three VERY vulnerable single mums who had decided to visit this particular Church on a regular basis.  They then began to unfold the story of their personal experience at this Church.  It seems the Pastor invites the fully fledged members who tithe to one midweek cell group, but only the tithers who are known as members can attend the weekly cell meetings.  Those who haven't committed themselves to tithing cannot attend this weekly cell meeting, but instead they can attend another meeting once a fortnight; so they effectively have less fellowship than the Christians who tithe.

I listened to these three single mums with anger burning within my heart, and many reading might say the anger burning within me was certainly not the righteous anger of God, but was my own human rebellious spirit.  Fair enough, each reader is entitled to their own opinion, but I am telling you now I have no doubts these three single mums were daughters of God, and I tell you, I take my hat off to them for the job they're doing in raising their children alone without a man in tow.

I heard Pastor David Wilkerson say (on video) to the single mums in his Church, single mums, put your money back in your pocket because this Church isn't going to take your money, use the money to put food on the table for your children.  I shared what Pastor David said to these three single mums and their eyes nearly popped out of their heads because they'd never heard a pastor say such a thing.

One Christmas the leader of this Church said, flock I have a Christmas present for you all, and lo and behold what was it?  Yes, it was tithing envelopes, and he said each of you have a number.  I was there, and as he said this, each of you have a number, I inwardly said, Lord what is going on here?  I sensed the Holy Spirit said, don't take the envelopes.

The Pastor's wife went round the room giving packs of envelopes to each person; as she got to me, I said kindly, no thank you.  You could have heard a pin drop, and all eyes were on me.  A few weeks later I was asked to leave the Church and not return.  That's a long story. 

Leaving the Church in October 2005 was the start of a journey with the Lord.  Was I distraught the night I was told to leave the Church?  Well, I thought I should be, and came home and got into bed, and propped up on my pillows I said Lord I am worried about my reputation amongst people I live with; you know my neighbours.  How's this going to look?

It was as if the Lord came right beside me and said, daughter I am going to share some things with you tonight.  I won't tell you now what the Lord unfolded to me from the scriptures but just to say, the peace that came over me was just awesome, and the love was out of this world.  I actually ended up weeping for this Church Pastor and his wife and the elders; I mean not just a few little superficial tears, but heart rending stuff.

A year later, a woman that can only be described as one of the right hand 'men' of this Pastor came to my home.  With tears in her eyes she began to tell me what happened after I was told to leave the Church.  I am not going to share here what happened, only to say it was pretty horrific; a Church elders wife committing adultery was tucked in there and the assistance Pastor and his wife quitting that Church, and just a whole stack of mature Christians leaving for another Church; that gives you an outline of what happened.

This particular Pastor said to me personally he believed non tithers were under the curse of God and would suffer poverty in their lives.  So, I went to my bank and asked the bank manager to set up a direct debit to take £100 from my account to the Church bank account every month; this was over and above the tithe; the Pastor said to get prosperity I had to go over and above the tithe.

Guess what I got?  No, not prosperity, but bankruptcy :)  I hid from my son and daughter what I had done.  I gave a £1000 as a one off gift to a Christian in the Church because I thought it was God telling me to do this.  The Church pastor had said this person needed a £1000 and would we pray and ask God if we were to give this amount.

I had tithed at my first Church religiously, and I know for a fact I did not prosper financially.  I did it because I believed that was what I was suppose to do.  I tithed from my single parent government allowance when my children were just toddlers.

I now know this teaching (robbing the poor) is evil, and anyone that takes from a poor single mum is committing a crime against her and her children.  I know these poor mums and their children are precious in His sight, and He looks after them with His own hand; they are highly prized in His sight.  I have seen miracles happen in my life; serious miracles.  If I was to share some of the miracles that happened to me; your eyes might almost pop out of your head.

I've been in situations where I have literally lost everything, and this is as a believer, and I'm telling you this had nothing to do with me not tithing to the Church; it had to do with what God knew would happen to me.  Look at Job he lost everything and was that because he did not tithe?  Look at Paul, he suffered the most heinous of injustices and was that because he did not tithe?  Why was Paul not financially prosperous?

Jesus said pray for your 'daily' bread.  We're to pray for our need not our greed.  We're to pray to be fed on a 'daily' basis, not to pray to win the lottery, not that I am suggesting anyone who reads here has ever prayed they'd win the lottery.

Oh beloved, I could say so much more on this subject but I am not sure if I should.  I could also unfold some of the miracles that have happened in my life; and I mean the most beautiful miracles of provision that God has seen fit to bless me with.

One very recent example.  My son's shoes developed holes, and it was my daughter's graduation on the 5th November.  Instead of grieving and thinking woe is me a poor single parent mum, forsaken by the Church for not tithing, and condemned to poverty; noooooo.  I prayed to Jesus Christ my Saviour, and I simply said, Precious Lord, my sweet son needs a pair of black leather shoes for my daughter's graduation, size 11, I then added, and he could do with a nice winter coat, and well, a few extra clothes.  Also, would You be able to help with some groceries this week if possible?

I felt such an amazing peace about asking the Lord for these things, and I felt literally overwhelmed with His love.  I then received a phone call the next day from a Christian lady who said I was very much on her heart and she sensed the Lord wanted her to buy certain things for me, and then she began to ask me about my son and what he needed.

Well, to cut a long story short, she arrived at my house with a pair of size 11 black leather shoes, a nice winter coat and several T shirts, long sleeved shirts and several pairs of long trousers and a nice woollen jumper for my son and £100 worth of groceries.

Some might say, oh how wonderful, well, my friend that is absolutely nothing compared to other miracles I have experienced over the years; that was one teeny weeny thing.  Like I said if I'm still around this forum after posting this, I'll start to share more of the wonders of God's provision, and not just material provision, but spiritual healing and changes in my personality; how He is changing me into a beautiful, dynamic woman of God who is able to lead many lost sheep to Him.  My phone goes several times a day, sheep looking for guidance, and I just marvel at how many people phone and say please Jackie, can you listen and then give advice.

Do I get tired with the phone calls?  Yes, I do, but I have to go to the Lord to replenish me.  Even this morning I had a dear lady wanting to hear something from the heart of God.  I am so excited because I know she is just so close to being born again, and so are quite a few others who phone me.  I had two beautiful Christian Pastors phone me yesterday, and they prayed the most amazing prayers for me on the phone, and I was so mightily blessed.  Both these men of God live in a different county to me, but distance made absolutely no difference; they felt as close to me as ever they could be, as they prayed on the telephone.

Glory to God in the highest for He alone knows the heart of each of us.
Trust in the Lord no matter how bad your situation seems, and don't think or worry about what's going on.  Concentrate your thoughts on the Lord and just ask the Holy Spirit to strengthen you and help you to pray the right prayers.  Pray earnestly, forgiving every single person that sins against you

Offline Linda Woodward

  • On Probation
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 398
  • Karma: +0/-0
Tithing
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2008, 08:49:50 AM »
Hi Ann -- Hi Jackie!  I still need to read your second post Jackie but I did want to say one thing:  I believe that this (and everything else in God's kingdom) comes down to one key fact:  God sees our hearts. 

Only He is to judge.  I happen to be of the belief that giving to a person in need counts more than just giving to a church because you have to.  But that too is just my opinion. 

You are right though -- this is a hot button topic .......

Linda

Offline Ann Doupont

  • Columnist
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 399
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Gender: Female
    • The Writings of Ann Doupont
Tithing
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2008, 10:00:58 AM »
Jackie,

I just read the first few lines of what you wrote in your second post. You mention what churches teach about tithing. Forget what churches teach about it, and instead read what the Bible teaches about it.

It sounds like you were hurt by the words of some pastors and perhaps need to forgive them.

 :12

Ann
Please visit www.anndoupont.org to see my other writings.

Offline Jackie

  • On Probation
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 202
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Prayer woman in field with arms stretched
Tithing
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2008, 10:18:15 AM »
Hot button indeed my dear, and Jesus met a woman at a well, and gave her His time; which is more precious than gold.  A blind man asked the disciples for money, and they said, we have no money, but we will heal you of your blindness.  That is my message to some of these pastors who want 10% and more of my government benefit:  "I can give you so much more than my money, I have give you the Word of God :)

The question is, do we want the word of God, or do we want man's word, or even the word of demons?  Hmm, doctrines of demons just popped into my mind.   I love the single mamas and their kids; these women are such tough cookies, and my goodness how they are shunned by so many Churches.  It's like they have to fit into the mould, as if there is something seriously wrong with them.

I'd rather be out and about with Jesus any day rather then waving my arms to a Church ceiling thinking I'm pleasing God.  I believe the majority of Churches are an offence to God, and I do not believe for one moment the Lord even bothers to walk through the door of these Churches.

I believe beautiful Jesus is with the broken hearted, the homeless, the sick, the divorcees, the falsely accused, the defamed...wherever there is suffering, the Lord is there.  I believe He is in Kenya where these poor people are fleeing for their lives because wicked people are burning down their homes.  I believe He is with everyone who is crying for a drink of water and a piece of bread, some shelter and everyone that is lonely.

Where is the true Church?

Answer:  "On the beaten track."  Jesus said, foxes have holes and birds have nests, but the Son of Man had NOWHERE TO LAY HIS HEAD.  Yes Jesus was homeless.  Jesus prayed for His daily bread.  Jesus did not store up wealth on earth.  Jesus fed the hungry and said clothe the naked.  He told us to follow His example.  The day may come when we may not have a home or money, and will we then forsake the Lord, and turn back to the world?  It's a high price following the Lord, and Matthew 24 says SUDDENLY.  Changes will happen suddenly, and that says to me, now is the time to prepare to be ready for what is coming.
Trust in the Lord no matter how bad your situation seems, and don't think or worry about what's going on.  Concentrate your thoughts on the Lord and just ask the Holy Spirit to strengthen you and help you to pray the right prayers.  Pray earnestly, forgiving every single person that sins against you

Offline Jackie

  • On Probation
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 202
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Prayer woman in field with arms stretched
Tithing
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2008, 10:45:41 AM »
Precious one I have forgiven and continue to forgive daily.  I have to forgive; if I do not forgive then I am imprisoned and cannot be free to follow the Lord.  Forgiveness is the key that unlocks every prison door.  Forgiveness is what releases the miracles in our lives.

I realised it was not enough to say with my lips, Father I choose to forgive this person or that person; that was a start yes, but I had to earnestly strive to be in that place of desiring His forgiveness in my life so much.  I realised if I could be forgiven, then I needed to be able to forgive others.

In Britain, I have heard Christians appear on the TV news after their sons have been shot or stabbed to death, and their parents say, "We forgive the one who has murdered our son."  This is the most awesome thing to hear parents say this, and I know the only way they can say this is because they walk hand in hand with the Lord Jesus on a daily basis.

I'm sure that doesn't mean their hearts don't pain, and they don't cry for what has happened, for the loss of their son in such tragic circumstances, and that's the same with the false shepherds and pastors, the Lord weeps for His people to return to Him and forsake the way of the world.  He is seated at the right hand of our Father as our High Priest bearing the wounds in his hand, side and feet forever making intercession on our behalf.

Paul the apostle did not want men or women to follow him; he wanted men and women to follow Jesus.  The true Pastor of God commands the flock to follow Jesus and listen to Jesus.  Tim wrote in the statement about the Holy Spirit and the need for the baptism of the Holy Spirit; only when we receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit can we even begin to think we can do the things Jesus did whilst He was on this earth.

I knew when we got onto the subject of tithing there could be people posting left right and centre, and believe me this subject tends to stir the waters of the human heart and what surfaces in some hearts is not very nice.  I've seen the most judgemental stuff written on this subject on Christian forums that I pray no one seeking the Lord will come on those forums.  I just pray with all my heart if there is anyone that comes with a judgemental heart to post on this subject they'd think twice and stay silent.

It's like someone prays to Jesus, and He says to His Father and our Teacher the Holy Spirit, hang on, before we make a decision on this one, lets check the list to see if they tithe 10% of their government benefit.  Jesus, turns to the Father, and the Holy Spirit and says:  " Hmm, this single mum is on benefit and she's asking for some help to buy groceries."  "Is she tithing to the local Church asks the Father?"  Jesus checks on the list to see if her name is there.  "No", said Jesus; "She isn't tithing to her local Church."  "Right", says the Father, give her nothing.

Would the Father, Son and Holy Spirit have a conversation like this?

Answer:  Certainly not.

Why not?

Because of JESUS BLOOD.

We receive salvation and all the riches that heaven can give because of Jesus blood.  We receive sonship and daughtership because of Jesus blood.  We can say Father because of Jesus blood, and our names are written upon the hands of the Lord, because of Jesus blood. 

Are we cursed with financial hardship because of not tithing (A Pastor told me this, and believe me he is just one of many Pastors who teach this lie?)

Answer:  Certainly not.

That is a lie from the pit of hell, because NO son or daughter is cursed with poverty or anything else, because the bible tells me so :)

Told you this subject was a contentious one.  I'll bow out if it gets too unpleasant; that's if I am not banned before hand; that's up to Tim; he's the forum police :9  Put your seat belts on because it's a rocky ride.  The Church stoned the Preacher Wesley when he came to my town; I read it in the history books.  Do we really think it is any different today?  The true man or woman of God is always hated and despised by the established Church.  It's always been this way and it won't change until Jesus comes back.
Trust in the Lord no matter how bad your situation seems, and don't think or worry about what's going on.  Concentrate your thoughts on the Lord and just ask the Holy Spirit to strengthen you and help you to pray the right prayers.  Pray earnestly, forgiving every single person that sins against you

Offline Ann Doupont

  • Columnist
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 399
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Gender: Female
    • The Writings of Ann Doupont
Tithing
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2008, 10:52:40 AM »
Jackie,

What does God's Word say about tithing?

Love,

Ann
Please visit www.anndoupont.org to see my other writings.

Offline Jackie

  • On Probation
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 202
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Prayer woman in field with arms stretched
Tithing
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2008, 11:14:23 AM »
Hi Ann

Exactly, what does God's word say about tithing?  That's a lovely bible study for someone, and that bible study certainly won't be me at the moment, because I am so busy being mum to my adorable son and daughter, and giving daily motherly advice to them.  I realise even when they leave home, the phone still rings and there's the old familiar voice of "Mum...", and it's usually followed by "Can you...?"

I thought when my children were of a certain age, I automatically got my life back; it doesn't work like that, as me and many of my friends have discovered.  Once you're a mum, you're a mum for life; for all eternity even.

I just thought, instead of me causing contention with the subject of tithing, why don't I start a thread entitled:  Mums?  How much more pleasure that would be :)

I'd love to read a bible study on tithing showing what God's word says on the subject.  I imagine there would be so many varied bible studies; but a very short concise thought out bible study; would be appreciated for anyone who is offering :)
Trust in the Lord no matter how bad your situation seems, and don't think or worry about what's going on.  Concentrate your thoughts on the Lord and just ask the Holy Spirit to strengthen you and help you to pray the right prayers.  Pray earnestly, forgiving every single person that sins against you

Offline Ann Doupont

  • Columnist
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 399
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Gender: Female
    • The Writings of Ann Doupont
Tithing
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2008, 11:25:26 AM »
Tim,

You could do that. I see you on here now.

 ;)

Ann
Please visit www.anndoupont.org to see my other writings.

Offline Jackie

  • On Probation
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 202
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Prayer woman in field with arms stretched
Tithing
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2008, 11:34:23 AM »
How amazing, I simply typed in google:  Is tithing for today? This was the first article on the page:  http://cnview.com/churches_today/chapter_6_truth_about_the_church.htm   The title got my attention, so I'm just going to read it :)

Trust in the Lord no matter how bad your situation seems, and don't think or worry about what's going on.  Concentrate your thoughts on the Lord and just ask the Holy Spirit to strengthen you and help you to pray the right prayers.  Pray earnestly, forgiving every single person that sins against you

Offline Ann Doupont

  • Columnist
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 399
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Gender: Female
    • The Writings of Ann Doupont
Tithing
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2008, 11:40:06 AM »
Jackie,

You will most likely find at least as many anti-tithing reports online as you will see pro-tithing.

A simple place for me to understand, that you might like to try, is the entire chapter of Malachi 3.

Back later...off to the church house. Got to bring my tithes from my government benefit...lol

Love you, sister.

Ann
Please visit www.anndoupont.org to see my other writings.

Offline Tim Russ

  • Community Leader
  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 869
  • Karma: +6/-2
  • Gender: Male
    • The Gift Project
Re: Tithing
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2008, 11:47:23 AM »
Tim,

You could do that. I see you on here now.

 ;)

Ann


Hi Ann,

I'll most likely create just such a study in the very near future. 

Tim